Zachary Cartwright [00:00:02]:
Have you noticed lately that headlines appear awash with warnings about ultra processed foods or upfs? Welcome to The Drip, where we keep your mind hydrated with some science, music and a mantra. I'm your host, Zachary Cartwright, lead food scientist at AQUALAB by Addium. If you feel like ultra processed foods are everywhere, including the news, but you need clarification on how to identify them and what they are, you're not alone. Unraveling this is much more complex than one might assume. Even scientists don't agree on a solid definition. In today's episode, I'll be discussing the ins and outs of ultra processed foods with food system researcher Marlana Malerich. Marlana is a co founder of rooted research collective and an incoming PhD student at Sussex University.

Zachary Cartwright [00:00:48]:
For the past six months, she has been involved in a working group focused on ultra processed foods and plant based meat alternatives. She's here to share what she has learned and why she thinks the ultra processed foods categorization system is unreliable for determining a food's nutrition. Hi Marlana, welcome to the show. Thanks for being here today.

Marlana Malerich [00:01:10]:
Thank you so much for having me, Zachary.

Zachary Cartwright [00:01:12]:
So what exactly is an ultra processed food?

Marlana Malerich [00:01:15]:
So, yeah, that's a bit more of a loaded question than you might think. Mainstream media portrayal of ultra processed foods are of kind of the normal culprits that you think of when you think of junk food. So we're thinking like, ice cream, processed meats, like hot dogs, chips, sweets, and sugary cereals and sodas. But there's actually a lot more to ultra processed foods than what you might see in mainstream media. And the definition and categorization of these foods are actually quite a contentious topic. And really, to understand the contention and to understand ultra processed foods in current debates, we have to talk about the Nova system.

Zachary Cartwright [00:01:58]:
Yeah, I was hoping we could get into that and discuss what the system is. I mean, these foods, some of them are definitely some of my guilty pleasures and things that I like to enjoy. But I'm happy that we're here to discuss these foods today and learn more about them. What is that Nova system that you mentioned?

Marlana Malerich [00:02:13]:
So, the Nova classification system is a system that was established in 2009 by brazilian researcher Dr. Carlos Monteiro. And this system categorizes foods into four groups based on their processing level. So I'll quickly go through each group. Nova one is considered the unprocessed or minimally processed food category. So that will include items you think of when you think of whole foods. So fresh and frozen vegetables, cuts of meat or milk. Nova two is considered the processed culinary ingredient. So these are products that have undergone some sort of processing.

Marlana Malerich [00:02:57]:
Things like olive oil, butter, honey. These products are not usually eaten on their own. They're used in cooking. And then Nova three is processed foods. And these are items that are ready to heat or consume. And they're often like easily recognizable Nova one items. So smoked meats or breads or canned fish. And then there's Nova four, which is the ultra processed food category.

Marlana Malerich [00:03:23]:
And this is characterized by extensive processing, many ingredients. And again, it's those examples that I mentioned in the beginning. It's, you know, ice cream, hot dogs, chips and things like that.

Zachary Cartwright [00:03:37]:
And you mentioned that this system was established fairly recently, 2009, and processed foods have been around much longer. Do you know why it's taken so long to establish this type of system? Or was there another system in place before?

Marlana Malerich [00:03:50]:
Yeah, I think there's been a lot of ways to sort of describe these types of foods in the past. I think like big foods or like industrialized food system, kind of junk food is another one as well. But Dr. Monteiro is like impetus for creating the system. Was, he noticed there were these sort of negative effects on local food culture in Brazil. And he kind of writes about this in his early papers in 2009, where hes talking about these foods are branded, theyre globally distributed, They're heavily marketed, highly profitable. He also describes them as foods that are generally from global north countries. You know, theyre headquartered in the US and Europe, but they are promoted all over the world. So think like Nestle, PepsiCo, General Mills.

Marlana Malerich [00:04:44]:
He also was essentially trying to speak to some of the sort of social, political impacts of our industrialized food system. So, you know, its processing, but its also the intention for what these products are intended. So they're designed for overconsumption. They're designed to displace minimally processed or unprocessed foods. The Nova system's really trying to do a lot. It's trying to designate food by its level of processing, but it's also this socio political take on our globalized food system.

Zachary Cartwright [00:05:30]:
And as I looked into the system, I actually realized there is some debate over it. And I was hoping you could touch on a little bit. What are the debates about the Nova system.

Marlana Malerich [00:05:40]:
Yeah, so you may have noticed that when I'm describing some of the designators of ultra processed food, I'm talking, of course, about processing. I'm also talking about these socio political impacts of global food. But I haven't mentioned nutrition. And one of the main concerns with Nova is its lack of inclusion of kind of nutrition content in the categorization system. And I really, I want to name here, I'm not a nutritionist. I approach this topic from a sort of social environmental science perspective. But yeah, you have to kind of notice that there's a huge emphasis placed on processing. And in that processing, there's an assumption made about nutritional value there, but it's not really included in the definition.

Marlana Malerich [00:06:30]:
And if that sounds confusing, don't worry. There was a study that came out fairly recently that found that even among health experts and food specialists, the designations of ultra processed foods were confusing. There was a lack of consensus on.

Zachary Cartwright [00:06:48]:
And as I looked into this more and looked up ultra processed foods, I kind of quickly found that there are maybe some health concerns about them. What are some of those health concerns that you wanted to bring up today?

Marlana Malerich [00:07:00]:
There's been a lot of research about the health risks associated with ultra processed food. And the research that has come out doesn't look great. And I'm sure you've noticed sort of that in mainstream media headlines. If you look at a studies, you can kind of see that when you look at studies that broadly categorize ultra processed foods, you get these causal results where you're seeing links to heart, cardiovascular disease, obesity, cancer, mental health, early death. There was recently one of the largest reviews of the health impacts of ultra processed foods that came out actually this year. The studies directly linked ultra processed foods to 32 harmful health conditions. Which is pretty scary.

Zachary Cartwright [00:07:51]:
Yeah, definitely. And I would be interested in looking at those research projects and kind of understanding the extent or how much of this food people are eating and how that correlates to some of these different health conditions. I thought another interesting topic to touch on, especially with your background, is just talking about some of the marketing and advertising tactics that impact consumers of these types of foods. What do you see when it comes to advertising and marketing?

Marlana Malerich [00:08:18]:
Yeah, so much of my research has really focused on alternative proteins and the validity of using Nova as a nutritional framework for these products. So I'm not as much of an expert on the marketing, but I can speak to the fact that one of Monteiro's designations for ultra processed foods was the heavily marketed aspect. You might remember earlier I mentioned in some of his early work, hes talking about ultra processed foods being branded, globally distributed, heavily marketed. However, and I will keep reinforcing this Nova four or ultra processed foods sort of dual definition of processing, and also intention. And that inclusion of this more social, political aspect makes it really difficult to sort of identify again which foods fall under this ultra processed category. I will say, though, that it's no secret that big food has been targeting young consumers with highly palatable high sugar and fat products for years. And Marion Nessel, who is a personal hero of mine, she talks a lot about this in her book food politics, and really highlights the issues of industrial food companies targeting children with unhealthy food advertisements. And this was long before the Nova system was established, and this has definitely been a subject of concern among public health advocates and policymakers.

Zachary Cartwright [00:09:43]:
When you look into some of these research projects and papers that you mentioned, there are some subcategories listed. What is that about?

Marlana Malerich [00:09:50]:
Yeah, so I think it's really important to recognize that there is nuance within the category of ultra processed foods. And even in this most recent study, again, that largest review of health studies directly linking ultra processed foods to 32 harmful health conditions. Within that study, the authors noted that some ultra processed foods were linked to ill health. But the effect of others, like ultra processed cereals or whole grain bread, even some packaged sweets or savory snacks, were linked to better health outcomes. And I'd really like to know from a nutritionist why these particular products seem to have positive impacts on health versus others. And I think it just really speaks to the fact that this category is so broad and we really need to have a better way of identifying these foods. Clearly, some of them are linked to really scary poor health outcomes and some are linked to better health.

Zachary Cartwright [00:10:52]:
Yeah, it sounds like there's a lot more work to be done, and maybe we've just scratched the surface. I do see a lot of efforts and campaigns and things around reducing the intake of these types of foods and improving diets. What types of campaigns should we be aware of?

Marlana Malerich [00:11:07]:
There's quite a bit going on right now, especially because ultra processed foods is kind of having a moment in the media. I saw recently that Colombia has established sort of a front of pack designator. So on packaged food foods, it's now required that it's labeled. And particularly foods are labeled if they're considered ultra processed. I don't know too much about the decision making process, but what's interesting is the labels themselves warn about nutritional values rather than processing, even though the Nova system and processing is considered. In the end, the front of pack designator is really for unhealthy ingredients or nutritional values, for example, like high sodium, high sugar, high trans fat. There's also quite a bit going on in the UK right now about potential policies about ultra processed foods. And there's, you know, a lot of discussion about labeling or regulating.

Marlana Malerich [00:12:09]:
But you're kind of seeing some of the same conclusions come from these roundtables where, you know, researchers are sitting down to discuss potentially regulating these products, and coming away with this sort of sense that the Nova system doesn't really accurately differentiate between foods that have different nutritional values, and is kind of coming away with some of these same questions, like, is processing the best way to determine nutritional value?

Zachary Cartwright [00:12:39]:
Yeah, and that's a perfect lead into this next question, because the Nova system has been around now for 15 years or so. Is there a better system or a better framework that we should be considering?

Marlana Malerich [00:12:50]:
I'm really glad you asked that. So, from our literature review, I'm probably most aligned with the Nutri-Score system. I just want to say that from sort of a food justice perspective, I really have a lot of respect for the Nova system. The intention for which food is produced, as Monteiro mentions, is really important. When we're talking about the global industrialized food system and a system that, you know, generally prioritizes wealth over health, there seems like there needs to be some sort of designator beyond nutrition, where we're talking about these sort of, like, big social, political impacts of the global food system. But because Nova leans heavily on processing versus nutrition, it gets really complicated to make these scientific conclusions about food using this system. So, from the literature reviews I've done, I think the Nutri-Score system is really good. No system is perfect, but Nutri-Score is a front of pack labeling system.

Marlana Malerich [00:13:51]:
It's used widely throughout Europe, and essentially, negative points are awarded for nutrients that should be limited, so calories, saturated fat, sugars, and salt. And then positive points are assigned for foods that should be encouraged, like healthy oils, vegetables, nuts, fibers, and protein. And then the final score is displayed as a letter grade from a to eternity. And then there's also a color scale that goes along with it, red to green. It's very straightforward. Consumers seem to understand it really well. And, yeah, no system is perfect, but it's far more scientific than labeling by level of processing, in my opinion.

Zachary Cartwright [00:14:32]:
Marlana, I understand that you've also done some research on hyper palatability, and what is that about?

Marlana Malerich [00:14:38]:
Yeah, definitely. My research has really just been a lot of literature reviews and reading other folks research. I definitely want to flag a term you may have heard, hyper palatable. So, Monteiro mentions quite regularly that one of the identifiers of ultra processed food is their design to be overconsumed. So he had this quote talking about how everything that we eat in this modern food world is designed and engineered to be overconsumed, at least when you're eating these sort of like processed foods, as he calls them. He also uses the language of hyper palatability when describing ultra processed foods. So hyper palatable foods have really specific fat, sugar, sodium, and carbohydrate ratios to increase their appeal and consumption. And research has found these sort of.

Marlana Malerich [00:15:37]:
They've been able to sort of numerically define hyper palatable foods and provide a really scientific method for identifying foods designed for overconsumption. So these really clear ratios of fat and sugar, sodium, carbohydrates, again, that really incite people to overeat. And I love this because it isn't broad like ultra processing. It's much more clear. It has this really clear framework for understanding these foods, but it also falls within Monteiro's definition of designed for overconsumption. But it provides these figures that can be repeated and studied, versus ultra process, which is clearly confusing to even the expert. And there's also a really interesting historical context to hyperpalatability, which includes a famous but potentially unexpected villain, big tobacco. The very brief history of this is in the eighties, when tobacco was clearly losing their disinformation campaigns.

Marlana Malerich [00:16:41]:
People were waking up to the impact of smoking, and tobacco was losing money. And it was during this time that they really decided to pivot to a different industry, and they started acquiring food companies. So tobacco companies like Philip Morris and RJR Reynolds expanded into the food industry. They acquired major players like Kraft and General Foods and Nabisco. And there was a really fascinating study that came out last year that showed that when they looked at research between 1988 and 2001, foods owned by tobacco companies were significantly more likely to be classified as hyper palatable than foods owned by other companies. So again, foods designed to be irresistibly rewarding, they encourage overconsumption due to their very specific combination of ingredients. So I hesitate to use the word addictive within the context of food. It's such a loaded word, but it's really interesting.

Marlana Malerich [00:17:43]:
And I would love to see more research, move away from ultra processed and the Nova system, or maybe focus less on ultra-processed and focus on hyper palatability. There's a real issue with designing foods with ingredients known to cause diet related diseases, and designing them to be overconsumed. And level of processing is not the key indicator.

Zachary Cartwright [00:18:06]:
And if these foods are designed in this way, does that mean I can feel less guilty when I sit down and eat that entire bag of my favorite snack or whatever it is? Because it sounds like I'm almost set up to fail in some ways. And even I think we're all kind of aware of this. We know that sometimes we can't even put it down because it tastes so good. And just hearing you say that those ratios have really been formulated to be a specific way, it's almost comforting, in a way, to know that, okay, if I'm eating all of this, other people are too.

Marlana Malerich [00:18:36]:
Yeah, it's not your fault. I'm currently teaching a food policy class right now, and one of the things we talk about, and one of the things we've talked about with my students is like, how much of food consumption is choice versus design. And you hear things like this, and it starts to feel like less choice and more like you're just being manipulated in some ways. Your taste buds are being manipulated.

Zachary Cartwright [00:19:02]:
And although we've talked a lot about the ultra processed foods today, I just wanted to briefly talk about your work and research on alternative meats. What can you tell us about this?

Marlana Malerich [00:19:11]:
Yeah, so my intro to the ultra processed food debate comes from my background in research and alternative proteins. There's been a real significant rise in concerns about the processing of alternative proteins and the potential health implications. And from the research I've done and, you know, the literature reviews that I've done overall, those fears are pretty unfounded, in my opinion. Alternative proteins often come out healthier than the animal products they're designed to replace. For example, plant based sausage versus a hot dog, or, you know, something along those lines. But the nutrition content varies between products and brands, and I think that's really important. So if you're using the Nutri-Score scale, we can use that to kind of do some comparisons here. There are some studies that showed that a beef burger scored a d on the Nutri-Score scale.

Marlana Malerich [00:20:07]:
So that's, like, on the less healthy side of things. While a plant based burger scored a c, and that was a pea based burger, which is slightly higher than, you know, the beef burger. And then there were the. They also examined a soy burger and a mycoprotein burger, which is made using a fungi. And those were both B's. So on the higher end of the nutrition scale, I think it's really important to point out there that even if plant based products tend to score higher than conventional animal products, there is a variation among the different products themselves. And then there's something to be said about ultra processed and nutrition when you're just looking at this category in particular. So, in a different study, researchers found that most of the plant based alternative proteins scored really high on the nutrascore scale.

Marlana Malerich [00:21:07]:
So A's and B's. But they also were mostly categorized as Nova three and four, so processed or highly processed foods. So again, sort of reinforcing that processing does not necessarily mean nutritional content. And, you know, reinforcing, again, that, like, we need a better way to talk about these things. I guess what I would say is it's just really important to note that not all plant based meats are created equal. And sodium content has actually been a huge struggle within the alternative protein industry. There was a study that showed that in the UK, alternative protein, alternative meat products tended to have higher levels of sodium than other products. So just something to keep in mind.

Marlana Malerich [00:21:53]:
I don't want to sound as if I'm saying, you know, all vegan food is automatically healthy. Deep fried plant based nugget is still deep fried. And again, I'm not a nutritionist, but if you're replacing a bowl of steamed veggies with a deep fried soy nugget, it's not the same thing.

Zachary Cartwright [00:22:08]:
Yeah, definitely not. But I. I'm amazed with how far this, this industry on alternative meats has come. And even within the last decade or so, I think even organoleptic aspects of them, sometimes you can't even tell a difference. But I think the way you've laid this out, and I to say, yes, some may have better nutrition and some maybe not. And different companies are going to approach us different ways. It's just a lot to keep in mind as we start to see more of these products enter the marketplace. Next, I wanted to ask you, Marlana, for a music recommendation.

Zachary Cartwright [00:22:41]:
What have you brought with us to share today? Have you brought an artist, a song, a genre? What can you share with us?

Marlana Malerich [00:22:47]:
I'm really not sure how to categorize this piece. I came across it recently, maybe a little bit of techno music. I really. I'm really not good at figuring these things out. But essentially it's a remix called Foxall Pale Blue Dot, and it's by Alabora. It's a speech by Carl Sagan called the Pale Blue Dot, which is also has a book by that name. And it's set to some really incredible music.

Marlana Malerich [00:23:17]:
And it's beautiful and it's grounding, and it's also just a great jam to work, too.

Zachary Cartwright [00:23:22]:
Thank you so much for bringing that to share today. And also I wanted to ask you if you have a mantra or a quote or a saying or something that you do to help motivate yourself and bring some balance to your life so that when you come to do your research, that you can show up and be ready to give your best.

Marlana Malerich [00:23:39]:
I mean, I guess keeping with the theme of the music recommendations, I have this vintage poster of Earth as seen from Apollo 11 next to my desk here. And at some point in the last year, I guess I put a sticky note on it that just says, you know, you are here. I also have another one that says, you're really okay. And, you know, I do. I work a lot. I feel really passionate about what I do. But I also feel it's really important to remind myself that I'm here on this great biggest, you know, pale blue dot. And it's kind of just a miracle, you know, from my perspective.

Marlana Malerich [00:24:17]:
So, you know, when I get bogged down with what I'm doing or feel stressed or demotivated, I can just take a moment to remind myself that I'm here and I'm alive. And that's very lucky.

Zachary Cartwright [00:24:31]:
Yeah, I think we all need that reminder sometimes, and hopefully somebody listening can benefit from that today. So again, thank you for sharing. Thank you so much for coming on our show. This is a really interesting and kind of a unique topic that we haven't included in the past from a different perspective. And so we really appreciate you being here. We hope to maybe have you back someday and get an update after you've done some more of your research and have more to tell us.

Marlana Malerich [00:24:55]:
Yeah, thank you. I really hope that what I've conveyed here is that the Nova system is complex. It's trying to do a lot and it trying to be sort of a nutritional guide using processing instead of nutrition. And it's also the socio political exploration of the industrial food system. So I don't know if your listeners feel slightly confused about what an ultra processed food is, just know that, you know, experts are as well. And if you have nutritional concerns, obviously talk to your Dr.. And don't beat yourself up for that potentially ultra processed bar you ate because you're busy and you need a snack. Food is so personal and there's no one size fits all.

Marlana Malerich [00:25:35]:
So be kind to yourself. Don't get too caught in the media headlines.

Zachary Cartwright [00:25:40]:
Thank you. Marlana, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Marlana Malerich [00:25:43]:
Thank you.

Zachary Cartwright [00:25:47]:
Today's episode is sponsored by AQUALAB. In this episode, we talked a lot about ultra processed foods, and often these foods contain additives such as preservatives, colorings and flavorings. In an effort to make UPFs healthier and respond to some of the concerns we listed in this podcast, many companies are currently working on reformulating products to contain more natural ingredients. However, one major hurdle with reformulation is the resulting changes in the moisture sorting characteristics of the new product, which can lead to major differences in shelf life, texture, and susceptibility to unwanted chemical changes or microbial growth. To better understand the sorption properties of new formulations, AQUALAB has developed a patented moisture sorption isotherm method called the dynamic dew point isotherm or DDI method that can be utilized by R and D teams to quickly overcome a range of product development challenges. A link to this technology, which can be found in the Aqua lab vapor sorption analyzer, will be in the podcast description. Today's track is being brought to us by a guest producer named Rob Mon.

Zachary Cartwright [00:26:54]:
He is a producer from the Pacific Northwest of the US and is bringing back old school dubstep and serving up his take on house music. His passion for dubstep came from listening to artists like Bassnector and Skrillex. And now Rob infuses the essence from many classic dubstep artists into his heavy hitting tracks. Let's hear a little from Rob Mon. My name is Rob. I go by Rob Mon in the music world. First, big shout out to Zach. Thank you so much for, you know, putting up my music.

Rob Mon [00:27:26]:
This new track is called DeepMind. It'll be out in a couple weeks. There's two main ingredients to DeepMind. The first is note progression. Very simple. You'll hear it in the intro. And second is just adding surrounding elements that fit those, those easy notes. So, yeah, here's a sneak peek of DeepMind.

Zachary Cartwright [00:27:49]:
And thank you, Zach, and thank you all for tuning in today. We're just going to play a portion of his new track called DeepMind, and you're going to have to wait for the released version to hear the drop. Here we go. No matter where you're from, all around the world, this one unique voice, no matter where you're from, all around the world, it's one unique, one special one. Finally, to round out this episode just like the others, I'll be offering another mantra as a reminder. This is a word, a syllable, a phrase, something that you can repeat to yourself to feel calm, motivate yourself, or express something that you believe in. This episode's mantra is, I like to work hard, and I just want you to think about what you like to work hard towards. I'm going to repeat this three times, and maybe you can say it out loud to yourself.

Zachary Cartwright [00:29:35]:
Here we go. I like to work hard. I like to work hard. I like to work hard. As you keep this mantra in mind, I challenge you to think about what it is that you like to work hard on or towards, and who you are when you're trying your best. Also, think about what success will look like for you. Thank you so much for listening to this episode with Marlana. My name is Zachary Cartwright, and this has been another episode of The Drip, brought to you by AQUALAB.

Zachary Cartwright [00:30:11]:
Stay hydrated and see you next time. No matter where you're from, all around the world, it's one unique, one special, one special.