Zachary Cartwright [00:00:04]:
Can sustainable packaging save us from a plastic infused meal? Welcome to the drip, where we keep your mind hydrated with some science, music and a mantra. I'm your host, Zachary Cartwright, lead food scientist at Aqualab. By adium. In today's episode, we will be talking with Doctor Angela Anandappa. With over 20 years of experience in the food industry, she is passionate about creating solutions that ensure production of safe, nutritious and sustainable food. She is the CEO of Alliance for Advanced Sanitation. And today we will be discussing the prevalence of microplastics in foods and how Angela's work can help to overcome this issue. Hi, doctor Anandapa.

Zachary Cartwright [00:00:47]:
Thank you for coming to the show today. We're happy to have you here.

Angela Anandappa [00:00:50]:
It's lovely to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

Zachary Cartwright [00:00:53]:
Yeah. So I want to ask you, how are microplastics getting into our foods? And how big of an issue is this?

Angela Anandappa [00:00:59]:
Well, it's an interesting question and it's an important question. And as time has gone by, and I have been monitoring this for a few years, we are understanding that there are more and more microplastics getting into our food. When I started thinking about this and researching into this area, it really was about the question of, is this really a chemical hazard that we consider as a food safety hazard? And that was probably seven, eight years ago. And at that time, when we looked at it, asking ourselves this question, what data do we have? Because we really go to that data to ask ourselves, what risks are there? And if there are, how do we address them? There wasn't a lot of data on microplastics. We knew they were there. We knew there were some, but the data really were very sparse and we didn't have enough relating to human health. So today I can tell you that there's a lot more information about that, a lot more data out there, a lot more research being done, which is wonderful and very helpful. And it's looking like we have to address this in some way, and that this is a point in history, let's say, when we are understanding that microplastics are one of the hazards that we should be considering, when we consider food safety, but certainly as an environmental hazard.

Angela Anandappa [00:02:20]:
We've known that plastics are a problem for decades.

Zachary Cartwright [00:02:23]:
And what types of foods are you specifically talking about? Are these primarily shelf stable foods or really any food where this microplastic is getting into?

Angela Anandappa [00:02:32]:
So I think years ago, I may have spoken about certain foods, particularly seafood, but I think today we can consider most food as having some interaction with plastic, specifically because many foods are packaged in plastic packaging or plastic coated packaging to preserve its shelf life and to give it the kind of quality that we're looking for. So most foods come into contact with some plastic at some period of time, and that may be at packaging, but many others come into contact with microplastics during the growing season. If it's fresh vegetables and fruits, we know that they're getting in there into the produce fields as well. And in addition, we know that seafood is always getting in contact with microplastics. And as we find that research is published more frequently about this, the numbers and the frequency of this are getting higher.

Zachary Cartwright [00:03:28]:
And I've heard that the average American eats about a credit card's worth of plastic a year. And I'm just curious if you can quantify that or if that's a good estimate. I'm sure, of course, it ranges by geographic location and diets and so on. But is that approximately how much plastic an average person is now consuming?

Angela Anandappa [00:03:50]:
I think it's a fair estimate. We probably have more than that coming into contact with our GI systems all the time. And it looks like people in the United States are coming into contact with more microplastics than some others in the rest of the world, which to me was a bit surprising, because as far as the news goes, we think that there's a lot more pollution in other parts of the world, and that that may be becoming an impact on their health. But in fact, we tend to come into contact with more microplastics in our everyday lives here in the United States.

Zachary Cartwright [00:04:23]:
And how can we overcome this challenge? Is this something that we can overcome by using sustainable packaging?

Angela Anandappa [00:04:29]:
Yeah, this is a good question, because I think we try to, as human beings, we try to look at what the solution might be, and we gravitate to that. We make switches in what we consume, what we purchase. Those purchasing decisions are driven by what companies want to tell us. And sustainability and sustainable packaging is something that I think plenty of information has been put out there in terms of recycling and the recyclability of things. These are relatively loaded questions when you think about it, because recycling isn't as efficient as it seemed to be, or we'd like it to be. So sustainability and sustainable packaging is an interesting concept, can I say concept? Because sustainability is driven by what sustainability might mean to different people in different countries. There are about 400 sustainability standards all over the world. And so when a consumer buys something that they think is sustainable, that product may be recycled, may have been made with partially recycled materials, or it may be made with a material that is indeed completely degradable.

Angela Anandappa [00:05:44]:
So there is a potential for some of that to be helpful. But generally speaking, there's a lot more material out there that hasn't been recycled or isn't recyclable at all that is in our midst. And some of it may be called sustainable because of a reason other than true sustainability when it comes to either environmental or whether the material has a sustainability factor associated with it.

Zachary Cartwright [00:06:08]:
And you've been working in the food industry now over 20 years or so, and I'm wondering, just from your perspective, are we becoming more sustainable? Are we tackling these problems like microplastics? What have you seen while you've been in the industry?

Angela Anandappa [00:06:22]:
I certainly think we're trying. I think that's a fair estimate to say that most people in the food industry are making an effort. They certainly are trying to choose materials that are going to be more suitable to have a human health outcome or a better outcome, and also to reduce toxic chemicals that may be in some materials. But overall, I'd say in terms of packaging use and packaging choice, we have come a long way since I started working in this space, so it's better than it used to be. And I think we have a lot more that we can do.

Zachary Cartwright [00:07:00]:
And currently, you serve as the CEO of Alliance for Advanced Sanitation. I was hoping you could talk a little bit about your work there and how it relates to this specific topic.

Angela Anandappa [00:07:11]:
Right. Thank you. So the alliance for Advanced Sanitation deals with sanitation issues. And because we call ourselves advanced sanitation, I think one of the things that we need to understand is what is advanced sanitation? When we think of more basic sanitation, the general consumer thinks of it as trash and garbage and toilets and things like that. And then, of course, we have advanced sanitation, which we think of in terms of how clean a facility or a retail facility or a restaurant should be. And those are all very different in terms of scale and what's required to keep that hygienic enough to manufacture food. In fact, a food manufacturing facility has to be very hygienic for us to be able to produce safe food. Sometimes it may be cleaner than a hospital.

Angela Anandappa [00:08:00]:
So in terms of advanced sanitation, where we are going and where our alliance is going is looking at food safety risks from the perspective of sustainability, because sustainability and sanitation go hand in hand. Everything that is used to make that facility clean, that may be water, it may be materials, it may be the design of the facility, maybe the materials used in all of that, all of those things have a relationship with sustainability. And so we need to look at it from this very long term perspective. And that's what we are looking at doing in terms of educating people, in terms of conducting research, in terms of bringing people together to have a different understanding than they may have before to help advance this area of hygiene for food.

Zachary Cartwright [00:08:50]:
And I understand that you've gone through a recent merger or restructuring of your company, and I was wondering, how are you carrying on this torch that's been passed to you? What are you doing now, and what was done before that?

Angela Anandappa [00:09:02]:
So I think we got to know each other through my work at the animal Digestible Food packaging initiative, which was started by Jack Cooper. The mission of that nonprofit organization was to bring the industry and public partners together to seek the development of fully digestible materials that can be used in food and in the food industry in general. That work needs to continue in terms of one of the missions that are necessary for sustainability, specifically for single use plastics, for replacement of that, or for products that just could be replaced, and they never were considered ones that should have been replaced. But we need to look at them in a new way. So what I am doing in taking over that mission is also looking at that from a new lens in terms of what we need to do, what we need to change, and absorbing that into the sustainability mission of the alliance for Advanced Sanitation. Both are nonprofit organizations from which we have members, and we have people who want to learn more through us. And of course, we both have the mission of bringing people together to inspire them to innovate and to have better materials and also to have better methods of using these materials in food.

Zachary Cartwright [00:10:21]:
And if somebody listening is inspired and they want to reach out to you or be a part of this process and some of the research and projects that you're working on, what is the best way for them to get a hold of you?

Angela Anandappa [00:10:33]:
They can find us on our website, and you can find me on LinkedIn or any of the social media platforms, preferably on LinkedIn. You can contact me, and you can join the alliance. There's different types of membership schedules to join the alliance. Individuals can join the alliance, students can join. But we really would like to have companies join as whole companies. And the reason is because we are providing a membership for all individuals in a company. So if you have a company with 50,000 people, we want every one of them to understand that food safety is important, that hygiene is important, and that we are working together to achieve our sustainability goals.

Zachary Cartwright [00:11:12]:
And just looking ahead, looking down the road, what can we practically achieve when it comes to microplastics and reducing this problem in five or ten years from now, can we eliminate this completely? Or what is a realistic goal for us as a food science community? What can we target? What can we actually achieve in that type of timeframe?

Angela Anandappa [00:11:33]:
Yeah, I think as people who are working in the food industry, we have very specific actions that we can take which are important and can lead to real impact in this challenge. One of the big issues with microplastics is that they go into the environment and they cannot come out of the environment. Even if it gets into an animal. And let's say the animal dies because the microplastic created the death, that microplastic still does not go out of the environment. It still is in the environment, and eventually it will get back into floating in water or in the sediment and being a risk of some sort. So one of the things that we can do is look for new materials that can be integrated or switching materials that are less complex or have those sustainability characteristics that we can count on. And so in terms of material qualification for packaging goods, I think this is an important area for us to look at. There's also so many areas in which we use plastics that we can consider alternating or using a different material instead of that plastic, or having a plastic material used in the place where it has the most utility and then disposing of it in an appropriate way instead of putting it away in the trash.

Zachary Cartwright [00:13:01]:
Yeah. And I see so many companies now working towards these types of goals, whether it's reusable, recyclable, something that can degrade or compostable. Is there a specific type of these that appear to be more sustainable to you? Or does it really just depend on the product and the specific company?

Angela Anandappa [00:13:21]:
It's a matter of complexity. There are thousands of plastic materials and flexible material that come under this big umbrella of plastics. Harder ones tend to be ones that cannot. So for instance, melamine, that does not degrade at all, ever. And we don't know if it'll ever degrade, even in 1000 years. So you might find that there are more moldable, meltable plastics that can be actually recycled or it can be broken down into its chemical components. So these are expensive ways in which you can recycle. But each community is different and each recycling system is different.

Angela Anandappa [00:14:04]:
And I believe that the US is going to have, hopefully we will have people coming together to do this because it is something that we need government to work with. But to have a unified recycling system for the entire country instead of the one that we currently have, which is really restricted in how it behaves because it limits what you can do, what you can in terms of the finances available, the people in those facilities, the equipment that's there, and it limits what each recycling facility is capable of doing. So our country isnt very cohesive in that and isnt very capable. So we have a lot to do there.

Zachary Cartwright [00:14:44]:
Yeah. And I certainly agree. And I think with all of this going on, it can sometimes be a headache or it can seem overwhelming. And im wondering as a scientist and as a CEO, what are some of the things that you do to balance your life or to make it more stress free so you can show up to work and give your best effort towards these types of challenges.

Angela Anandappa [00:15:05]:
I'm going to say that I really enjoy being creative with food, which is kind of ironic because I worked with food, too, but I enjoy being creative with food. That's one of the things that I really love to do. And I think there's a lot more of us that just want to kind of do that and do something creative and do something different and sort of break the rules sometimes.

Zachary Cartwright [00:15:29]:
And I'm also going to ask you for a music recommendation. This could be an artist that you like, just a type of music, maybe a specific song that you can't get out of your head. Do you have a music recommendation for us today?

Angela Anandappa [00:15:41]:
Oh, my. This is a difficult one. The one I was recently listening to that I couldn't get out of my head was Jason Mraz, and I think he's been around for a while, but I'm not saying that he's my favorite everything. But I do love a lot of his music and I love his rhythm.

Zachary Cartwright [00:15:56]:
It's hard not to. Well, Angela, thank you so much for your time. I know this was a quick conversation, but it really highlights the importance of tackling this specific topic on microplastics and some of the work that you're doing. I just want to thank you so much. I know you're a really busy person, but we appreciate you showing up and being here today, and we look forward to catching up with you later and seeing where we are down the road and if we're able to tackle this challenge.

Angela Anandappa [00:16:21]:
Thank you so much. It was good to be here, and thank you for inviting me again.

Zachary Cartwright [00:16:28]:
Today's episode is sponsored by Aqualab. In this episode, we discuss sustainable packaging. Did you know that one of the biggest challenges of changing packaging is making sure that the new packaging's water vapor transmission rate will preserve the safety and quality of the product inside, whether it's compostable, biodegradable, recyclable, or reusable. Food scientists and packaging engineers need a way to quickly determine the WVTR needs and assess shelf life under a wide range of conditions. And this is possible using insights from moisture sorption isotherms. A link to a food science Friday video that dives deeper into this topic will be available in the podcast description. This episode song is something I'm currently working on with Christian Martinez, and it's currently unreleased. We're thinking of calling the song too late, and it's a house track that we had a lot of fun putting together.

Zachary Cartwright [00:17:21]:
Christian is here and is going to give his thoughts on the track.

Christian [00:17:24]:
Hey, I'm christian. I had a lot of fun making this track with Zach. We got to bounce ideas off each other and take turns, you know, building the song from scratch. So it was a lot of fun. Can't wait to play it live.

Zachary Cartwright [00:17:34]:
Let's check out the first verse and first drop together.

Music [00:17:49]:
What is right, what is right? I can see the shadows look like you I gotta forget find something there's no going back for you and I, you and I cause now it's too late no, now it's too late.

Zachary Cartwright [00:19:17]:
And finally, to round out this episode, I will be offering another mantra. Again. A mantra is a single syllable, a word, a phrase. Just something that you can repeat to yourself, to feel calm, motivate yourself, or maybe express something that you believe in. This episode's mantra is, I will embrace the glorious mess I am in. I'm going to repeat this a few times, and you're welcome to just listen or maybe say it out loud to yourself. Here we go. I will embrace the glorious mess I am in.

Zachary Cartwright [00:19:48]:
I will embrace the glorious mess I am in. I will embrace the glorious mess I am in. As you keep this in mind, I also challenge you to think about the last compliment that you received and maybe also someone that you can give a compliment to today. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. My name is Zachary Cartwright, and this has been the drip brought to you by Aqua lab. Stay hydrated and see you next time.